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Old January 11th, 2007, 05:49 PM   #1
d_felham
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Default [Veg] AR movement's attitude to sex/porn

What is the attitude towards sex radicalism/porn etc in other vegetarian/animal rights movement? I heard yesterday from a friend who have some animal rights activists from Spain visiting, that they apparently thought it was terrible to be on a site like this etc etc. I've always regarded the Swedish AR movement as pretty lame regarding these issues, but I think it's not so influenced by antiporn radical-feminism that it used to be, ten or five years ago. Though when I was on a AR gathering last year, someone stole all my copies of G-SPrOuT and probably threw them away, because I saw some people who disliked them. But they never said anything or tried to have a constructive conversation about it.

I guess the Swedish mentality plays a role here, and swedes are often said to be more afraid of conflicts than in other cultures. Probably also with myself as well, and I've often kept a low profile regarding these issues, not to "provoke" etc, and talked about it mostly when asked about it... And still, most discussions are on a pretty theoretical/political level, where "what kind of porn you like"-discussions are taboo or to private to talk about or whatever. So my main observations from Sweden is that people don't really talk about it, right now. Many people could have a "past" in antiporn cultures, but like myself, is not anymore.

Also, I think it's strange that there are no (I think) models on vegporn from UK. They are often said to have the strongest AR movement, and the percentage of vegetarians there is much higher that any other European country... Maybe a need for more advertising and PR?
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Old January 13th, 2007, 08:57 AM   #2
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It's been a long time since I was active in the UK - I left there over 10 years ago - but my impression is that there wasn't a widespread anti-porn attitude amongst AR people. It wasn't an issue (as long as everyone involved is an adult making their own decisions, obviously). That's my experience, could be wrong.
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Old February 20th, 2007, 10:14 PM   #3
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As an American, I'd say that most animal rights people here are anti-porn, whether it's a big part of their political schtick or just a minor gripe with the world.

(The funny thing about discussing this sort of thing is that I have more complaints about the porn industry than just about anti anti-porn activist, except mine are totally different from theirs and I love porn.)

I've talked/debated about this issue a lot over the years, almost as much as I've talked with people who think vegans are some kinda mentally-challenged nutcases, so I suppose it feels tiring to think about.

One of the things I will say is that I think there is a fundmental problem with the way that animal rights activists approach other issues. AR folk are trained to see things in terms of helpless victims versus murderers, and when they try to take that line of reasoning into other areas, it doesn't work. A sex worker is not a voiceless victim who needs outside interests to speak on her behalf and make guesses at what she would want for herself. To make such assumptions is incredibly rude and degrading to women because it treats sex workers as little more than battery hens. Sex workers are very capable of speaking and organizing on their own behalf, around the issue that actually effect their lives, and for outside interests to step in on some moral crusade about how they're going to "save" the poor sex workers from exploition is insulting and obnoxious.


As for Veg Porn models in the UK, we have Kristofski.
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Old March 16th, 2008, 03:30 PM   #4
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Hmm, being a solitary hermit-like figure, keeping an eye on things...

Aye, "sex" in general to people I've noticed around me, is just..."sex." But the problem is, "sex" has it's intentions too. It may be painful because of angry rape. Or perhaps it's a sharing of love between beings. Or maybe it's just a way to "relieve" one's self, through getting picky about a person's appearance, then trying to "win the person over" with an non-close-knit relationship.

Ah heck, we're all adults here, of course you get what I'm saying; especially with your general encounters in this life of the world.

Intentions. Aye. The thing we ought glare at behind everything that's "done." Yeah, since I notice people around me, there's a variation of course, since it's all multicultural, and ALL sorts of walks of encounters....usually, it's just not brought up as much; sex that is, only if it's about safe sex etc etc.

As for the AR peoples around where I am, I really haven't talked to them personally yet, since I haven't started volunteering or establishing a network yet, but hey, the way it seems, they're all quite laid back and open-minded about it.

Seems they have no trouble telling between forceful prostitution, to consensual love, etc etc.

Ok, I had no wish to be dogmatic nor repetitive (I just noticed it occured by re-reading), but anyhow...I guess where I am. The city of such great variation, and being overrated, with such different walks of life...it's not so bad. Just..expensive to live. =-p

I dunno, just my encounters and what I'm aware of for now.
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Old April 23rd, 2009, 04:18 AM   #5
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In tussia many Vegans and Animal Rights activists are unfortunately anti-porn. Some of it comes from the strict Straight Edge culture dominating that spectrum of society. Unfortunately many of these people also believe that LGBT people are ill and need to be cured.

On Anarchopedia (anarchist wiki) there was also an individual who went on the vandalism spree deleting any mention of sex, sexuality, porn, erotica, and everything else. Who was a german anti-speciesist. But in germany there are a lot of right wingers who have joined Animal Liberation movement.

In in england right now, and it's much much better here. q;-)=
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Old February 27th, 2010, 04:24 PM   #6
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I haven't come across any explicitly anti-queer vegans, but perhaps there are some quiet ones (Carol Adams?).

Quote:
degrading to women because it treats sex workers as little more than battery hens.

I know what you're saying and don't disagree, but I dislike the way you phrased that. No one is "more" than anyone else. You might be more something than a battery hen, but please name it because it's too easy to degrade non-human animals by merely describing ourselves as "more" than them. Then we become "more" everything than them.

I understand it is wrong to think of women in porn as helpless victims, but are you suggesting that battery hens are helpless victims? If not, then how will you describe them? I don't have answers, just looking for some.

I actually used to be anti-porn, I guess. Not staunchly, but I kind of went along with people like Carol Adams. I am Zen Buddhist and not a very sexual person (thought about ordaining), so it was easy to be anti-porn. I still detest alcohol, but I respect others' right to drink it as long as they aren't hurting anyone. But porn... whatever. Mainstream porn makes me want to puke. I have seen genuine lesbian porn and was amazed that the women didn't look like drones, but were actually depicted as individuals... you know, more than just their sexual organs.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 03:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarabi
I know what you're saying and don't disagree, but I dislike the way you phrased that. No one is "more" than anyone else. You might be more something than a battery hen, but please name it because it's too easy to degrade non-human animals by merely describing ourselves as "more" than them. Then we become "more" everything than them.

I understand it is wrong to think of women in porn as helpless victims, but are you suggesting that battery hens are helpless victims? If not, then how will you describe them? I don't have answers, just looking for some.

I absolutely do consider humans "more" many things than animals, notably in intellectual capabilities and self-awareness. I think you'd have to be mentally a bit off to think that humans do not have certain capacities that nonhuman animals do not. That's not to say humans are more deserving of not being killed or better than animals per se, but you can't argue that a hen is the exact same everything as a human, especially when it comes to being able to speak for herself in a political arena.

But, by all means, if you would like to prove me wrong and point to where chickens are organizing themselves and having protests, producing web sites, magazines, and conferences by and for chickens, I'll reconsider thinking that sex workers are different from chickens.
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Old March 9th, 2010, 09:56 AM   #8
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But you haven't given a reason why it matters that humans are more anything than nonhumans. Nonhumans are more many things than humans are, but you apparently don't think that matters. My point is, your statement that humans are more many things than nonhumans is utterly irrelevant until you explain what its relevance is. The blanket statement "humans are superior to nonhumans" means nothing by itself, but is used to mean that humans should own animals and use them for any purpose they feel like.
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Old March 9th, 2010, 10:06 AM   #9
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Correction: The blanket statement "humans are superior to nonhumans" means nothing by itself, *except that humans should wield ultimate power over nonhumans. That is the only intrinsic purpose to making that statement. I could say there are many humans who are "superior" to me. They are more intelligent, more socially skilled, etc... yet this is irrelevant until I explain why. It could mean I think I should kill myself, it could mean I would sacrifice my life for someone in a very unlikely either/or situation, or it could mean I think it's okay for them to take advantage of me.... it could mean so many different things. But I don't go around saying, "So-and-so is superior to me," even if I do say, "So-and-so is more intelligent than I am."
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Old April 15th, 2010, 05:07 AM   #10
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Sarabi: if you can't figure out how to parse what I've already stated, I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you again.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 05:12 AM   #11
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I'm with Sarabi on this one. Humans have more capasity for rational thought, but that is irrelevant to the discussion.
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